Engine Surging in RACE Mode? - Ducati 959 Panigale Forum
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post #1 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
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Engine Surging in RACE Mode?

Is anyone else having an issue with throttle surging in RACE mode on their 959?


Mine has been doing this since shortly after I bought the bike back in March and seems to be getting worse over time.


It first showed up on bumpy roads at steady light throttle, where it induces a bucking motion that upsets the suspension and causes the bike to hobby horse or rock on it's front and rear suspension.


It is most noticeable in first gear but I have seen it in all gears up through 4th at one time or another.


It is creating problems with my turn entries on less than smooth corners when transitioning on-off-on throttle and tends to unsettle the bike in the corner.

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post #2 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 01:53 PM
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I have observed the same thing. I find that the throttle on my 959 gets incredibly twitchy at about 10-20% throttle.

The best I can describe it is that at that point, its no longer a linear throttle and almost as if there's a point near 10% throttle that just feels there's a jump in the mapping. As an example, its like throttle position 0-9% maps to 0-1% throttle, then between 9-10% throttle position, it goes jumps to 10%.


I'm running with engine high, ebc at 3. Similar to your other post, I'm going to try the Sport's engine medium to see if maybe the throttle mapping is completely linear.


I can't find in the manual where it differentiates between engine HIGH/MED/LOW (pg 124 probably closest), but I'm under the impression that HIGH/MED are both full powered, but maybe HIGH has a quicker ramp up throttle mapping. My hypothesis is that maybe MED is a purely linear throttle mapping to 100%. I would imagine that the LOW mode is simply a 0-67% throttle mapping to achieve the rumored 100HP.

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post #3 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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Hi DJ, I'm relieved to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing the surging issue. When it first started, I thought it was just a case of bad fuel from a Mom and Pop filling station I was using. Switching to a high volume station with more rapid fuel turnover seemed to have helped but now it's back and worse than ever. I did recently change my daily ride route and am using a different station so will need to experiment as it could be the FI system on this bike is very susceptible to fuel quality.


I've noticed it's much worse when hot than cold, in fact I don't recall any issue early this morning when riding out; but after about 40 miles when coming home, it was surging really badly at partial throttle in 4th gear, about 4500-5000 rpm. It goes completely away if you nail the throttle and rev it out. On a choppy road it can get so bad it starts to buck and induce a rocking motion into the suspension. It's really messing with my corner entries on medium speed turns, 65-70 mph in 4th gear and it creates a bucking motion at lean which then causes the suspension to bob unsettling the chassis and causing me to back out of the throttle. I've cranked in a ton of compression and rebound on both ends which helps but doesn't completely alleviate this problem. It is not there at all in high speed sweepers, 85-95 mph
and 5th gear, the bike corners like a cat on Velcro.


Quote from an 899 Panigale Forum:


Quote:
I knew it would be different to ride in comparisons to my previous bikes, however as the months have gone by I have realised that the 899 was just horribly fuelled. Low RPM, low speed riding was a real challenge, on/off throttle response was violent, surging and a sense the bike would stall. Gear selection was critical, get it wrong and let the rpms drop and you’d be dipping the clutch to stop it stalling. On the motorway, the bike would surge and I had to be super precise with throttle position to keep at a steady speed, which was tough on anything but the smoothest roads. Essentially the bike took so much effort to ride it was beginning to become a chore rather then a pleasure to ride.



That sums up my feelings, this bike is hard work to ride smoothly and I come back whipped. I'm guessing fixing the surging and this bike will be transformed.


Let me know what you find out when you switch modes and engine settings.

2016 ZX-10R KRT
2016 959 Ducati Red
2012 CBR1000RR Red
2011 ZX-10R Ebony
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2004 VTX-1300C Candy Red

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post #4 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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From Cycle World Literbike Shootout July 18, 2016:


Quote:
As a package, the 959 would benefit from brakes with more initial bite, an on/off throttle transition that doesn’t almost immediately relegate you to the medium engine power delivery setting, and something that better shields you from engine heat. Those negatives aside, the bike delivers on its promise to be something more exciting than a middleweight and at the same time something more user-friendly than a literbike.

Apparently this is more common than we thought and most likely unrelated to fuel quality. Time to research the manual and find out what setting will give me 100% power but smoother fuel delivery down low and a more linear response.

2016 ZX-10R KRT
2016 959 Ducati Red
2012 CBR1000RR Red
2011 ZX-10R Ebony
2009 ZX-6R Lime Green
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2004 VTX-1300C Candy Red

"We walk by faith and not by sight"
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post #5 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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RexXer mapped!
I have just installed a RexXer map on my Panigale 899.

So firstly a disclosure: We have just become the official RexXer agent for New Zealand.

Ok now I have got that out the way...

How does the bike go now? In the words of Mike Myers

'Yeah Baby!'

A good test ride has confirmed that this has really filled in some of the torque hole between 4000 and 8000 rpm.

This bike which still has the standard exhaust and slipons on it, now seems to have more mid range than another Panigale 899 I rode recently which had the Termignoni pipes on it with the Termignoni upmap.

The noticeable surging caused by running very lean tree hugging fuelling has now all but been eradicated.

Also the engine has lost that grating lean running sound and now has a more rounded (richer sound to it). I am a believer that running engines lean long term is not very friendly on them.

Best improvement is the bike now has much smoother roll on power from no throttle mid corner point. It makes it easier to get into a rhythm and string a sequence of tight corners together smoothly.

I haven't done a before and after dyno run but I doubt there would be any significant top end hp power gain. If it has gained 3 or 4 horsepower at the top end I doubt anyone would notice it on the road. But what you do notice is the fantastic improvement in low and midrange smoothness. I can now enjoy riding the bike smoothly through town at 45km/h in 4th gear with no engine surging.

If anyone has any questions I will try to answer them.

Please note we only do RexXer engine mapping in New Zealand if you are in another country please look up your local RexXer agent.

Definitely the second best upgrade I have done to my project 899 yet.

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Last edited by FastBikeGear; 05-29-2015 at 12:05 AM.

2016 ZX-10R KRT
2016 959 Ducati Red
2012 CBR1000RR Red
2011 ZX-10R Ebony
2009 ZX-6R Lime Green
2006 ZX-14 Passion Red
2004 VTX-1300C Candy Red

"We walk by faith and not by sight"
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post #6 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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DJ, it sounds like ultimately the problem is due to lean Euro 4 mapping and won't be completely fixed without an ECU flash or Power Commander and remap. I'm going to do whatever it takes, this bike has way too much potential to waste on this snatch throttle response which is ruining the enjoyment of owning the machine.


What's strange is I must have read every road test, review and shootout on this bike before making the purchase decision and don't recall anyone talking about this problem until just lately.

2016 ZX-10R KRT
2016 959 Ducati Red
2012 CBR1000RR Red
2011 ZX-10R Ebony
2009 ZX-6R Lime Green
2006 ZX-14 Passion Red
2004 VTX-1300C Candy Red

"We walk by faith and not by sight"
2 Corinthians 5:7
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post #7 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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Sport Rider magazine had an informative write up on the 959's electronics suite, which is nice since the owners manual is basically worthless at explaining anything.....aaargh!


Quote:
Race
By selecting the Race Riding Mode, the rider can use the “High” Power Mode - ensuring 157 hp power with highly responsive engine behaviour to throttle opening. The Race mode also reduces the DTC system degree of intervention, provides a race-oriented EBC and front-only ABS with no rear end lift-up prevention.
Sport
By selecting the Sport Riding Mode, the system will select the “Med” Power Mode - ensuring 157 hp power with a smoother engine response to throttle opening. The Sport mode slightly increases the DTC system degree of intervention, and provides a sport-oriented EBC with front and rear ABS activation for increased rear end lift-up control.

2016 ZX-10R KRT
2016 959 Ducati Red
2012 CBR1000RR Red
2011 ZX-10R Ebony
2009 ZX-6R Lime Green
2006 ZX-14 Passion Red
2004 VTX-1300C Candy Red

"We walk by faith and not by sight"
2 Corinthians 5:7
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post #8 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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I am guessing that Race and Sport are offered as convenient presets that can adjust all parameters on the fly without having to go into the customizing menus which is a PITA on the side of a road.


Both apparently give the full 157 BHP but only change the engine throttle response from aggressive (High) to (Medium) smoother. Of course all of the other settings change as well for more intervention in the Sport mode defaults.


So I guess can leave it in Race mode and set engine power to Medium and get the same effect as switching to Sport mode which is going to change my DTC and EBC settings but give me the default Medium power delivery and the full 157 BHP. I think I 'll try the first option and see if this doesn't fix the problem. I am also going to try switching from EBC Level 3 (minimum intervention) to Level 2(more intervention) as I noticed it pushes a bit entering the corners on Level 3.


Hope this fixes my corner entry issues, fingers crossed.

2016 ZX-10R KRT
2016 959 Ducati Red
2012 CBR1000RR Red
2011 ZX-10R Ebony
2009 ZX-6R Lime Green
2006 ZX-14 Passion Red
2004 VTX-1300C Candy Red

"We walk by faith and not by sight"
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post #9 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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motoDNA: The Jerkiness of Jerky Motorcycle Throttles - Asphalt & Rubber

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2011 ZX-10R Ebony
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2004 VTX-1300C Candy Red

"We walk by faith and not by sight"
2 Corinthians 5:7
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post #10 of 74 (permalink) Old 10-05-2016, 09:44 PM
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I don't have time to read the link now but I have noticed the same thing. It's why I thought my throttle spacers were deformed..

R
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