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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There's been a few posts by users here in the past couple of months about our 959's Panigale throttle being limited by the ECU until a certain engine speed (ie. throttle doesn't fully open until 8000 RPM). This information was passed along by their dealers, so while its not directly from Ducati, it may hold some sort of validity.

Ever since those posts, I've started to question whether or not its true. With the last release of the GSXR1000, it seems like throttle restriction is not a new thing.


Let me preface that I'm not referring to riding modes, ride-by-wire throttle mapping, or the torque characteristics of the engine, but specifically the phenomenon that it seems like the throttle is capped until 8000 RPM, then "opens".


Can anyone anecdotally confirm this as well (on stock ECU) and those who have updated tunes, confirm that this "throttle restriction" actually exists (data would be great!) and was removed for you?
 

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This could explain why the bike stock is kinda a turd in sixth gear. I get why so many manufacturers are doing this, because its easy power and easy upgrades later on in the product life just by simply holding open the butterflies longer. Subscribed to see if anyone looks into this on the duc.
 

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I watched the video. I only have one thing to say about it. It's Absolutely Pointless for 95% of people who ride that bike. The only people that will benefit from what he's pointing out are the people that live at 12K-13K RPM. Homebrew racers might benefit. I didn't see any change in power before 11,5K RPM by him modifying when the TB's open... or am I missing something there?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
@Dingo I'm asking whether or not what occurs in the GSXR1000 happens to our 959s. According to my uncalibrated butt dyno, I'm not sure if it does, but I sometimes feel that it does.


I thought there was another user on here that made the statement, but could only find @SquireSCA.

Second, the [throttle bodies] don’t fully open until 8000rpm.
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They don't open up fully until 8000rpm, according to Mark at the Ducshop. That's when the motor really comes alive.

@SquireSCA could you get more details for us from Mark?
 

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@DJ Shrug - got it... That makes sense that the TB's only fully open at 8K RPM. Imagine what would happen if you're at 4K RPM and you WOT... there has to be a system in place to prevent too much fuel being thrown down the throat instantly. It's not a 90's Gixxer!
 

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Wouldn't you want the throttle bodies valves to match the throttle grip at any rpm?
Intuitively, that's what I would expect.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
@DJ Shrug - got it... That makes sense that the TB's only fully open at 8K RPM. Imagine what would happen if you're at 4K RPM and you WOT... there has to be a system in place to prevent too much fuel being thrown down the throat instantly. It's not a 90's Gixxer!
I'd really hope that fueling is set from the factory to account for this (via something similar to acceleration enrichment or TPS tip-in, very common FI ECU tuning parameters). ECU restricted throttle just seems like some emissions related garbage, so its plausible in my mind.


Wouldn't you want the throttle bodies valves to match the throttle grip at any rpm?
Intuitively, that's what I would expect.
Exactly! I mean, I hope our 959s don't have this restriction, but recently, I honestly have been believing that my 959 has some restriction up until 8k RPM.


I think its possible that my own 959 just has that characteristic at my mile high elevation, but I'm still not convinced that its just mine.

Wouldn’t that make torque loss, due to fuel excess?
Not necessarily, excess fuel in the right conditions (less than ideal lean tune during acceleration and hot air environment) could produce more power due to the evaporative cooling of the extra fuel - very specific condition however. As an aside, running pig rich also doesn't reduce power/torque, but you run the risk of washing the cylinder walls of lubricant (ie. extra BAD) and just plain wasting fuel.
 
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Whether the TB's need to be open linearly depends on the several factors. The air flow rate of the throats, pressure the injectors create and their rate of flow, etc. The real question is... what's the efficiency of the TB's - meaning, at what percentage of Open do they stop performing and become constant, with regard to airflow, because all they do is provide the air to the mixture. It really is more complicated than just the TB's being open at a given Throttle Position. It's late and I'm tired... night. :)
 

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What Mark explained to me when he was doing my first 600 mile service, was that you can give it full throttle, but the throttle bodies don't actually fully open until 8000rpm. This is controlled by the ECU and ride by wire system. I interpret that to mean that the bike is in effect, "restricted".

He said that when you flash the ECU with TuneBoy or BrenTune, they have options to open those throttle bodies sooner and quicker.

To me that says your bike won't make more peak HP, but when you look at the curve it might make more of it, sooner. The motor feels a bit neutered until 8000rpm.

I know that there are threads on TuneBoy and how there are different modes impacting this topic.
 

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This is similar to the video from Brock, although in his case, Suzuki was closing the throttle bodies early, which had a massive impact on top end power.

Ours appear to be fully open at full throttle near redline. It's before that, where they are closed and so I don't see us getting massive gains on the top end the way Brock did. We should however, be able to pick up some power in the midrange.
 

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Let me see if I can get BrenTune over here to explain it himself. As soon as I knock out some other expenses I will be ordering up one of his tuner boxes. He says he gets 8-10hp(typical, not a guarantee obviously) out of a stock 959.

And the ability to flash and return it to stock, clear engine codes and maintenance minders and other things in a little hand-held box, rather than requiring a laptop... Seems like the best bet for me.

Let's see if he pops in with some insight.
 

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I'd love to get a definite answer on this.

I always wondered if there was something like this. My gear sensor was acting up the last 10k miles on and off and I distinctly remember pulling a third gear wheelie while WOT, which as you all know is basically f*king IMPOSSIBLE on an 899. The bike thought I was in first but I was in third, so I assumed it was using a different throttle map. I have no clue. I know what happened but not sure why. The bike did WEIRD things when it thought you were in neutral or first but you were actually in third or fourth. Throttle was jacked up beyond belief and it even kept giving it throttle when my hand wasn't even on the throttle!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Some more info from TuneBoy

ducati_Mitsubishi | Tuneboy
I remember these threads, but assumed those power modes refer to the combination of tunes/power maps and throttle position mapping (or ride-by-wire throttle position to throttle body position mapping), but not so much engine speed throttle mapping.


Pinging @Bradley, @Chris Bradley, @nband, and @D-StyleNZL to see if any of you have seen any settings for this potential ECU restriction on throttle vs. engine speed.

Let me see if I can get BrenTune over here to explain it himself. As soon as I knock out some other expenses I will be ordering up one of his tuner boxes. He says he gets 8-10hp(typical, not a guarantee obviously) out of a stock 959.
That would be great! I also notice that BrenTuning's 959 product page does mention "full throttle limiters"...

Source: https://brentuningmoto.com/product/2016-ducati-959-tuning-handheld-tuner/

80 ADDITIONAL map corrections to:

Ignition Timing per every fuel, conversion to Alpha N Fueling, lambda, cat off changes, full throttle limiters, engine braking in all modes, cold and warm start, driveability issues (removal of known flat spots), speed and rev limit adjusted for max power, lambda limiters, throttle valve, adaptation to race fuels.
 

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Yeah, I am hoping he gets a few minutes to pop in and explain it. If it does what I hope it does, I am buying the BrenTune box and his tune. I imagine that others will as well.
 

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I am highly intrigued by this as before reading any of the threads on this subject I had the distinct though of "man, at 8k this thing opens up like a VTEC honda motor".

My experience is there is a marked difference at 8k. Curious to know if this is designed intentionally, or if it is just a characteristic of starting to breath at optimum level as you approach the meat of the powerband.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
"man, at 8k this thing opens up like a VTEC honda motor"
Exactly, except a poorly tuned crossover point that causes a poor transition between the low and high cam lobe maps!

If it exists and the ECU throttle restriction was tuned correctly, I'd have no problem with it, but in my opinion, it feels like the crossover point could be set earlier to be smooth (or removed completely).
 
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