[Kruz]

Is anyone else having an issue with throttle surging in RACE mode on their 959?


Mine has been doing this since shortly after I bought the bike back in March and seems to be getting worse over time.


It first showed up on bumpy roads at steady light throttle, where it induces a bucking motion that upsets the suspension and causes the bike to hobby horse or rock on it's front and rear suspension.


It is most noticeable in first gear but I have seen it in all gears up through 4th at one time or another.


It is creating problems with my turn entries on less than smooth corners when transitioning on-off-on throttle and tends to unsettle the bike in the corner.

 

[DJ Shrug]

I have observed the same thing. I find that the throttle on my 959 gets incredibly twitchy at about 10-20% throttle.

The best I can describe it is that at that point, its no longer a linear throttle and almost as if there's a point near 10% throttle that just feels there's a jump in the mapping. As an example, its like throttle position 0-9% maps to 0-1% throttle, then between 9-10% throttle position, it goes jumps to 10%.


I'm running with engine high, ebc at 3. Similar to your other post, I'm going to try the Sport's engine medium to see if maybe the throttle mapping is completely linear.


I can't find in the manual where it differentiates between engine HIGH/MED/LOW (pg 124 probably closest), but I'm under the impression that HIGH/MED are both full powered, but maybe HIGH has a quicker ramp up throttle mapping. My hypothesis is that maybe MED is a purely linear throttle mapping to 100%. I would imagine that the LOW mode is simply a 0-67% throttle mapping to achieve the rumored 100HP.

 

[Kruz]

Hi DJ, I'm relieved to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing the surging issue. When it first started, I thought it was just a case of bad fuel from a Mom and Pop filling station I was using. Switching to a high volume station with more rapid fuel turnover seemed to have helped but now it's back and worse than ever. I did recently change my daily ride route and am using a different station so will need to experiment as it could be the FI system on this bike is very susceptible to fuel quality.


I've noticed it's much worse when hot than cold, in fact I don't recall any issue early this morning when riding out; but after about 40 miles when coming home, it was surging really badly at partial throttle in 4th gear, about 4500-5000 rpm. It goes completely away if you nail the throttle and rev it out. On a choppy road it can get so bad it starts to buck and induce a rocking motion into the suspension. It's really messing with my corner entries on medium speed turns, 65-70 mph in 4th gear and it creates a bucking motion at lean which then causes the suspension to bob unsettling the chassis and causing me to back out of the throttle. I've cranked in a ton of compression and rebound on both ends which helps but doesn't completely alleviate this problem. It is not there at all in high speed sweepers, 85-95 mph
and 5th gear, the bike corners like a cat on Velcro.


Quote from an 899 Panigale Forum:

I knew it would be different to ride in comparisons to my previous bikes, however as the months have gone by I have realised that the 899 was just horribly fuelled. Low RPM, low speed riding was a real challenge, on/off throttle response was violent, surging and a sense the bike would stall. Gear selection was critical, get it wrong and let the rpms drop and you’d be dipping the clutch to stop it stalling. On the motorway, the bike would surge and I had to be super precise with throttle position to keep at a steady speed, which was tough on anything but the smoothest roads. Essentially the bike took so much effort to ride it was beginning to become a chore rather then a pleasure to ride.

That sums up my feelings, this bike is hard work to ride smoothly and I come back whipped. I'm guessing fixing the surging and this bike will be transformed.


Let me know what you find out when you switch modes and engine settings.

 

[Kruz]

From Cycle World Literbike Shootout July 18, 2016:

As a package, the 959 would benefit from brakes with more initial bite, an on/off throttle transition that doesn’t almost immediately relegate you to the medium engine power delivery setting, and something that better shields you from engine heat. Those negatives aside, the bike delivers on its promise to be something more exciting than a middleweight and at the same time something more user-friendly than a literbike.

Apparently this is more common than we thought and most likely unrelated to fuel quality. Time to research the manual and find out what setting will give me 100% power but smoother fuel delivery down low and a more linear response.

 

[Kruz]

FastBikeGear
Member

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 76

RexXer mapped!

​

I have just installed a RexXer map on my Panigale 899.

So firstly a disclosure: We have just become the official RexXer agent for New Zealand.

Ok now I have got that out the way...

How does the bike go now? In the words of Mike Myers

'Yeah Baby!'

A good test ride has confirmed that this has really filled in some of the torque hole between 4000 and 8000 rpm.

This bike which still has the standard exhaust and slipons on it, now seems to have more mid range than another Panigale 899 I rode recently which had the Termignoni pipes on it with the Termignoni upmap.

The noticeable surging caused by running very lean tree hugging fuelling has now all but been eradicated.

Also the engine has lost that grating lean running sound and now has a more rounded (richer sound to it). I am a believer that running engines lean long term is not very friendly on them.

Best improvement is the bike now has much smoother roll on power from no throttle mid corner point. It makes it easier to get into a rhythm and string a sequence of tight corners together smoothly.

I haven't done a before and after dyno run but I doubt there would be any significant top end hp power gain. If it has gained 3 or 4 horsepower at the top end I doubt anyone would notice it on the road. But what you do notice is the fantastic improvement in low and midrange smoothness. I can now enjoy riding the bike smoothly through town at 45km/h in 4th gear with no engine surging.

If anyone has any questions I will try to answer them.

Please note we only do RexXer engine mapping in New Zealand if you are in another country please look up your local RexXer agent.

Definitely the second best upgrade I have done to my project 899 yet.
Karlos likes this.
__________________
Red 899, Custom graphics, RexXer map, Titax levers (better brake feel), R&G Racing axle siders, R&G Racing carbon fibre Engine Case Protectors, R&G Racing radiator guard, Ultrabatt Lithium Battery. Ducabike non slip foot pegs, Eazi-Grip tank grip, Nitron NTR R3 3-way adjustable shock.

​

Last edited by FastBikeGear; 05-29-2015 at 12:05 AM.
​

 

[Kruz]

DJ, it sounds like ultimately the problem is due to lean Euro 4 mapping and won't be completely fixed without an ECU flash or Power Commander and remap. I'm going to do whatever it takes, this bike has way too much potential to waste on this snatch throttle response which is ruining the enjoyment of owning the machine.


What's strange is I must have read every road test, review and shootout on this bike before making the purchase decision and don't recall anyone talking about this problem until just lately.

 

[Kruz]

Sport Rider magazine had an informative write up on the 959's electronics suite, which is nice since the owners manual is basically worthless at explaining anything.....aaargh!

Race
By selecting the Race Riding Mode, the rider can use the “High” Power Mode - ensuring 157 hp power with highly responsive engine behaviour to throttle opening. The Race mode also reduces the DTC system degree of intervention, provides a race-oriented EBC and front-only ABS with no rear end lift-up prevention.
Sport
By selecting the Sport Riding Mode, the system will select the “Med” Power Mode - ensuring 157 hp power with a smoother engine response to throttle opening. The Sport mode slightly increases the DTC system degree of intervention, and provides a sport-oriented EBC with front and rear ABS activation for increased rear end lift-up control.

 

[Kruz]

I am guessing that Race and Sport are offered as convenient presets that can adjust all parameters on the fly without having to go into the customizing menus which is a PITA on the side of a road.


Both apparently give the full 157 BHP but only change the engine throttle response from aggressive (High) to (Medium) smoother. Of course all of the other settings change as well for more intervention in the Sport mode defaults.


So I guess can leave it in Race mode and set engine power to Medium and get the same effect as switching to Sport mode which is going to change my DTC and EBC settings but give me the default Medium power delivery and the full 157 BHP. I think I 'll try the first option and see if this doesn't fix the problem. I am also going to try switching from EBC Level 3 (minimum intervention) to Level 2(more intervention) as I noticed it pushes a bit entering the corners on Level 3.


Hope this fixes my corner entry issues, fingers crossed.

 

[Kruz]

motoDNA: The Jerkiness of Jerky Motorcycle Throttles - Asphalt & Rubber

 

[Kevin.H]

I don't have time to read the link now but I have noticed the same thing. It's why I thought my throttle spacers were deformed..

 

[O_O]

Kruz, I could stop by one day to validate or invalidate your concerns with the throttle if you'd like to compare our bikes' throttle profiles.

 

[kats]

I haven't noticed a difference between race/sport WRT the issue your dealing with. For me, keeping higher than usual revs in the corners seemed to mitigate the issue - somewhat. The inability to adjust the throttle entering a turn without getting nervous is a buzz kill though. I'd definitely throw money at something that fixes this without question. Thx for the research!

EDIT: Just looking on the Power Commander site and couldn't find any maps for the 959. Also says there is no access to the "closed loop" something or other - not sure what it means. Maybe this why why the guys with the Akrapovic exhausts are pretty happy - not the HP but the response.

 

[O_O]

My Race mode is set to 1 1 1
My Sport mode is set to 1 3 1 (although I believe 1 3 2 would be smarter )
cant remember my Wet mode.
Where the settings are Engine Braking Control (EBC), Ducati Traction Control (DTC), and ABS as they display on the panel.

I'm trying to learn how to ride the bike without all the electronics. But I'm sure these electronics can save my life one day.



Summary of settings:
EBC
OFF - Max engine brake
1 - Default for all riding modes.
2 - Very low engine brake
3 - Minimum engine brake

DTC
1 - Permits sliding sideways (for Pirelli tires with SC2 compound)
2 - Permits sliding sideways (OEM tires) RACE Default
3 - Permits sliding sideways
4 - Track & Road
5 - Sport Style consistent w/ max 145HP w/ smooth delivery SPORT Default
6 - Very Safe Style consistent w/ max 145HP
7 - Track use with rain tires. Optimized for Pirelli Diablo Rain 190/60 ZR17
8 - Wet roads and slippery asphault, MUST use engine 100hp setting. WET Default

ABS
1 - only the front wheel abs is on and back wheel abs is turned off (track)
2 - allows few uncontrolled lift-ups, both wheels abs on (road, good grip)
3 - controls most lift-ups, both wheels abs on (wet surfaces)

details: https://ownersmanuals2.com/ducati/superbike-new-959-panigale-us-version-2016-owner-s-manual-67432/page-66

 

[Kruz]

Kruz, I could stop by one day to validate or invalidate your concerns with the throttle if you'd like to compare our bikes' throttle profiles.

Your's is not surging in RACE mode?

 

[Kruz]

I haven't noticed a difference between race/sport WRT the issue your dealing with. For me, keeping higher than usual revs in the corners seemed to mitigate the issue - somewhat. The inability to adjust the throttle entering a turn without getting nervous is a buzz kill though. I'd definitely throw money at something that fixes this without question. Thx for the research!

EDIT: Just looking on the Power Commander site and couldn't find any maps for the 959. Also says there is no access to the "closed loop" something or other - not sure what it means. Maybe this why why the guys with the Akropovic exhausts are pretty happy - not the HP but the response.

Hello Kats, if I'm hearing you correctly, switching from RACE to SPORT mode does nothing to alleviate the part throttle surging? If that is the case, I don't even want to test it tomorrow, it sounds like it will mute the responsiveness of the motor with no change in this dreadful surging.


The next thing to find out is if this is affecting all 959s or just ours. I just assumed it was finicky mapping to get by Euro 4 and decided to just ride it; but now it's affecting the ability to corner carve which is the only real reason this bike exists .....other than posing at Starbucks which ain't my scene. I spent way too much on this bike to have it running like this.


It sounds like a call to AMS Ducati in Dallas may be in order, they seem to support racers and may have a fix or know where to go to find it.

 

[Kruz]

My Race mode is set to 1 1 1
My Sport mode is set to 1 3 1 (although I believe 1 3 2 would be smarter )
cant remember my Wet mode.
Where the settings are Engine Braking Control (EBC), Ducati Traction Control (DTC), and ABS as they display on the panel.

I'm trying to learn how to ride the bike without all the electronics. But I'm sure these electronics can save my life one day.



Summary of settings:
EBC
OFF - Max engine brake
1 - Default for all riding modes.
2 - Very low engine brake
3 - Minimum engine brake

DTC
1 - Permits sliding sideways (for Pirelli tires with SC2 compound)
2 - Permits sliding sideways (OEM tires) RACE Default
3 - Permits sliding sideways
4 - Track & Road
5 - Sport Style consistent w/ max 145HP w/ smooth delivery SPORT Default
6 - Very Safe Style consistent w/ max 145HP
7 - Track use with rain tires. Optimized for Pirelli Diablo Rain 190/60 ZR17
8 - Wet roads and slippery asphault, MUST use engine 100hp setting. WET Default

ABS
1 - only the front wheel abs is on and back wheel abs is turned off (track)
2 - allows few uncontrolled lift-ups, both wheels abs on (road, good grip)
3 - controls most lift-ups, both wheels abs on (wet surfaces)

details: https://ownersmanuals2.com/ducati/superbike-new-959-panigale-us-version-2016-owner-s-manual-67432/page-66

I posted my current suspension and menu settings this afternoon in the thread titled Settings/Feedback. I've been playing with this thing for months now trying to get it to handle right and finally decided it's the abrupt throttle response that is messing up my cornering. It's terrific on high speed sweepers where I have the throttle wide open but goes spastic at around 5000 rpm in the slower corners. Kats mentioned running a lower gear through the twisties to get it out of the surging range but then I'm revving the snot out of it. There has to be a solution as the 899 apparently was doing the same thing.

 

[Kruz]

Kruz, I could stop by one day to validate or invalidate your concerns with the throttle if you'd like to compare our bikes' throttle profiles.

That would be great!

 

[Rinzlr]

Hmm. I don't notice mine surging but I'm coming from a Mv agusta F3 675 and it had horrible throttle response so the 959 feels very smooth

 

[DJ Shrug]

Just to clarify for anyone, RACE/SPORT/WET has nothing to do with how much power or the response our 959s has. Its based on engine modes (HIGH/MED/LOW).


After riding today on engine medium, I found it be very disorienting as I've always run in HIGH. HIGH probably has a linear profile just goes to WOT when at ~60% throttle, and MED just is a fully linear, full range profile. I'd say that MED helps slightly, only because you have more range to be smooth on the throttle.


I'd suspect however, based on the article/link to the remap of the 899, that the surging occurs due to the transition to the range where EBC kicks in. When you have the throttle at a point when your 959 is neither accelerating/decelerating, rolling off the slightest will make it enter where EBC is active. Rolling on slightly while engine braking at this point causes the surging. Going to try and see tomorrow if the surging persists when EBC is off.

 

[Kruz]

Just to clarify for anyone, RACE/SPORT/WET has nothing to do with how much power or the response our 959s has. Its based on engine modes (HIGH/MED/LOW).


After riding today on engine medium, I found it be very disorienting as I've always run in HIGH. HIGH probably has a linear profile just goes to WOT when at ~60% throttle, and MED just is a fully linear, full range profile. I'd say that MED helps slightly, only because you have more range to be smooth on the throttle.


I'd suspect however, based on the article/link to the remap of the 899, that the surging occurs due to the transition to the range where EBC kicks in. When you have the throttle at a point when your 959 is neither accelerating/decelerating, rolling off the slightest will make it enter where EBC is active. Rolling on slightly while engine braking at this point causes the surging. Going to try and see tomorrow if the surging persists when EBC is off.

Yes, let us know, disappointing to hear that Medium Power Mode didn't help smooth things out much. Did it feel pretty sluggish on the Medium setting like it had lost power and acceleration? Mine is already set so I might go ahead and ride it just so I know what Medium feels like. I checked on the PCV Power Commander and it is available but unable to change settings below 5000 rpm which is exactly what we need, due to operation in closed loop. I'm guessing it has a lambda sensor to meet Euro 4 standards. there are other options available, tuneboy is one but I don't have any information yet on how it works. Your dealer can also upload a new map from Ducati directly into your ECU but only if Ducati has updated it to correct the surging issue which I'm guessing they haven't. It sounds like they set it very lean in that range to get by emissions resulting in drivability issues.