Front Brake - First Lever Pull feels soft

47360 Views 87 Replies 22 Participants Last post by Forewarned, 1 mo ago

Ike

Discussion Starter · May 4, 2017 (Edited)

Hi All,

While I'm riding my bike and hit the front brakes, it seems like the first pull of the front brake lever feels softer than if I immediately let go (wait 1 second) and squeeze again. After I'm back to not using the brakes this proccess will repeat on the next first grab of the lever

So to sum up: the first pull of the brake lever travels slightly farther than the second pull which feels like its truly braking 'hard'.

It's very slight but I have noticed my stopping power is much better on that second lever pull. Which is starting to make me worried actually. (in case i had to emergency stop, that first pull is going to not be 100%)

I am going to take the bike in to the shop and have them check it out but i wanted to check first to see if anyone had this issue before? I thought i remember reading a while ago someone saying that you just had to bleed the front brake lever, but I wasn't sure if that seems like a symptom of it.

Any else experienced this? Is it just a case of needing to be bled?

Thanks,

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Renzo520

· #41 · Dec 9, 2017

Pard said:
https://youtu.be/1iSN2vc5-b0

Watch that video link above.

The technician is working on a Ducati and talks about the ability to activate the ABS system during bleeding, with specialized tools, in order to make sure the air is purged. Not a DIY task.

I am not sure that the culprit is the ABS system for brake lever softness, but if it is, why is my dealership mechanic saying soft brake is normal on the Ducati 899/959?

If the ABS system retaining air was a know and fixable issue, I would have hoped Ducati would be sending out a service bulletin, and this thread would go away. So, I just don't know.

My new 959 has 400 miles on it, and a way too soft initial pull on the front brake lever, and coffee colored fluid in the rear reservoir.

My previous and first bike was a Ninja 300 with ABS, which had a better brake feel, and no moment of panic when applying brake pressure only to get no response. It also cost 1/3 of the 959.

I would agree that deleting the ABS system is not an option for me either. I like having ABS and would not own the bike without it.

I dont know why your dealer is saying that its normal, because its not, since it was fixed on my bike and it now has a proper brake lever. The rear reservoir gets hot and seems to dirty the fluid very quickly, but the rear brake is used so little that I dont pay much mind to it.
The front lever has a fix for it, mine was fixed by activating the abs. They may be telling you that its normal because they are flat rate and not getting paid for it, so they dont care to spend more time on it.
My bike has 5400 miles and the brake was fixed around 4000. I do know they had an issue with over greased front brake calipers, but if you ride it hard for a bit the grease would burn off and then your brake will be normal. I tried that for 4000 miles and bled it a couple of times, did not fix it, so I gave them the bike and told them to fix it since I didnt want to go to the track with spongy front brake. There is no need to delete the ABS unless its a race bike, since you can turn it off on the dash if you happen to go to the track.

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Pard

· #42 · Dec 10, 2017

Renzo520 said:
I dont know why your dealer is saying that its normal, because its not, since it was fixed on my bike and it now has a proper brake lever. The rear reservoir gets hot and seems to dirty the fluid very quickly, but the rear brake is used so little that I dont pay much mind to it.
The front lever has a fix for it, mine was fixed by activating the abs. They may be telling you that its normal because they are flat rate and not getting paid for it, so they dont care to spend more time on it.
My bike has 5400 miles and the brake was fixed around 4000. I do know they had an issue with over greased front brake calipers, but if you ride it hard for a bit the grease would burn off and then your brake will be normal. I tried that for 4000 miles and bled it a couple of times, did not fix it, so I gave them the bike and told them to fix it since I didnt want to go to the track with spongy front brake. There is no need to delete the ABS unless its a race bike, since you can turn it off on the dash if you happen to go to the track.

After pressing my dealer a bit more on the issue, he said that a warranty claim was approved by Ducati and that the dealer will bleed my brake system and check for any abnormalities during my first service.

I am pleased with that response.

Meanwhile, snow is on the ground around here so it may take a while longer than I anticipated to get that first service done.

BLoOdRiCuTeD

· #43 · Dec 11, 2017 (Edited)

kats said:
A tip I got from a Ducati mechanic was to bleed up at the brake reservoir first, then down at the calliper. He said if there's a little air up at the reservoir, you can bleed the calliper all day and never know if you got the air out.

BLoOdRiCuTeD said:
Hmmmm, well at this point I'm willing to try anything. Will re-bleed going master cylinder 1st and report back.

Geez this has exploded since I last posted . . . Well, this method worked initially and got me really excited, up until the 3rd session on the track and the lever pull was squishy again.

I talked to some guys around the track and it seems the squishy 1st pull issue is not isolated to the 959 Panigale. One guy with an 899 Panigale had the same issue, as well as a couple of guys with S1000RR's and one guy with a KTM 1290 Superduke.

One of the S1KRR owners suggested the following which worked for him: Open front brake reservoir cap, pull front brake lever and apply tie strap method to force air in the master cylinder into the system. Then push back all pistons in the calipers all the way back to force air out of the calipers. Leave overnight and then bleed system going master cylinder 1st.

I'll try this and report back. Need to replace my brake pads anyway, OEM pads get chewed up pretty quickly in track duty. I'd really like to find a way around this issue without resorting to going to the dealer every time.

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Pard

· #44 · Dec 12, 2017

Just an update on my experience with this phenomenon...

After reading about the theory of the ABS system retaining some air and causing the soft feel, and after learning about the strap-down-the-lever-overnight procedure, I went for a ride and performed several ABS activating stops with the thought of pumping ABS brake fluid and releasing the air that may have been trapped in that system.

I followed it up with an overnight, lever to grip, cable tie procedure.

The following day, the lever was absolutely slack under the cable tie. Pressure in the system seemed to have disappeared. How and why would that be?

After pumping the lever a couple of times the lever was once again firm and the soft pull feeling is gone, at least for now, and at least for the following 2 rides following that experiment.

I plan to bring in the bike next week for the first service and the dealer will bleed the system and check it out.

Forewarned

· #45 · Dec 12, 2017

Could be a master cylinder issue if it can't hold pressure. Fluid could be leaking past the piston seal.

Pard

· #46 · Dec 12, 2017

Forewarned said:
Could be a master cylinder issue if it can't hold pressure. Fluid could be leaking past the piston seal.

No sign of fluid leak and the reservoir level has not dropped. I am hoping that an air bubble made it's way up the lines into the reservoir, and that would have created slack in the lever since the total pressure in the line would have dropped as a result. Just a theory.

The lever is perfect now. No sign of previous spongy feel.

Forewarned

· #47 · Dec 12, 2017

You don't have to see a leak for it to leak past the piston. You're not going to see a change in the fluid level either.

Pard

· #48 · Dec 12, 2017

Forewarned said:
You don't have to see a leak for it to leak past the piston. You're not going to see a change in the fluid level either.

Good to know. I will discuss with the mechanic when I bring it in, and make sure a master leak is ruled out. Thanks.

Renzo520

· #49 · Dec 14, 2017

Pard said:
Good to know. I will discuss with the mechanic when I bring it in, and make sure a master leak is ruled out. Thanks.

After they activated my ABS they checked the lever for multiple days in the morning to make sure it was holding, it appears air from the ABS comes up to the reservoir and escapes as a bubble and thats probably why yours did that with pressure on it all night. Glad its fixed, I would put pressure on it again but you most likely wont have to worry about it anymore.

Pard

· #50 · Dec 20, 2017

Forewarned said:
Could be a master cylinder issue if it can't hold pressure. Fluid could be leaking past the piston seal.

You may be right after all. I had my 959 in the shop for the first service today. They checked out the brake system and found some air in the master. They told me that if the soft feel returns thay will replace the master for me under warranty.

On the ride home, after they bled the system, it felt really firm for the first few miles, but now it feels softer again.

I will keep the lever cable tied overnight and see what happens.

Pard

· #51 · Dec 21, 2017

Pard said:
You may be right after all. I had my 959 in the shop for the first service today. They checked out the brake system and found some air in the master. They told me that if the soft feel returns thay will replace the master for me under warranty.

On the ride home, after they bled the system, it felt really firm for the first few miles, but now it feels softer again.

I will keep the lever cable tied overnight and see what happens.

After keeping the lever tied to the bar overnight, the lever was dead slack this AM. After releasing the tie, and two pumps of the lever, it is firm again.

I am disappointed that after dealer service there is still air in the system.

Now the fun begins trying to get this really resolved.

Pard

· #52 · Dec 24, 2017

Check out this video. Has anyone tried this to maintain a solid lever feel?

While waiting to get my system components replaced, this seems like a really easy was to start the riding day to ensure a solid lever. The video is of the clutch but should work on the brake as well if the problem is just a bit of air trapped in the master.

BLoOdRiCuTeD

· #53 · Dec 24, 2017

BLoOdRiCuTeD said:
One of the S1KRR owners suggested the following which worked for him: Open front brake reservoir cap, pull front brake lever and apply tie strap method to force air in the master cylinder into the system. Then push back all pistons in the calipers all the way back to force air out of the calipers. Leave overnight and then bleed system going master cylinder 1st.

Right, so I've done this on the 14th of Dec while swapping brake pads, and have ridden the bike daily after that. Brake lever has been perfect ever since.

The SBS brake pads are awesome by the way:grin2:

Pard

· #54 · Jan 15, 2018

My front brake continues to cause me grief. I bled the master myself last week. It seems better for a few days, but last night I tied the brake lever down to the bar overnight, and this AM it was completely slack.

The dealer said I should not bleed it again. Looks like I will be getting a new master under warranty, and while at the shop, I will have the coolant leak (dreaded weep hole seepage/seal failure) fixed under warranty. Under 1000 miles and two major critical systems are in need of repair.

Do I regret getting a Ducati over an R6? Hmmm...

Pard

· #55 · Jan 18, 2018 (Edited)

Pard said:
My front brake continues to cause me grief. I bled the master myself last week. It seems better for a few days, but last night I tied the brake lever down to the bar overnight, and this AM it was completely slack.

The dealer said I should not bleed it again. Looks like I will be getting a new master under warranty, and while at the shop, I will have the coolant leak (dreaded weep hole seepage/seal failure) fixed under warranty. Under 1000 miles and two major critical systems are in need of repair.

Do I regret getting a Ducati over an R6? Hmmm...

Update on the front brake issue.

My 959 is at the dealer and they noticed that the pistons at the calipers are not retracting after pressure is released as much as one would expect. They think this may be the cause of the soft brake feel. Ducati was informed of the finding and we await a reply.

panigalespacers

· #56 · Jan 18, 2018

Pard said:
Update on the front brake issue.

My 959 is at the dealer and they noticed that the pistons at the calipers are not retracting after pressure is release as much as one would expect. They think this may be the cause of the soft brake feel. Ducati was informed of the finding and we await a reply.

Crazy, this issue has existed since I bought my brand new 899 back in 2014. Can't believe there's still not a resolution! I've happily moved onto an 1199S, and loving the rock-solid lever!

Dingo

· #57 · Jan 19, 2018

panigalespacers said:
Crazy, this issue has existed since I bought my brand new 899 back in 2014. Can't believe there's still not a resolution! I've happily moved onto an 1199S, and loving the rock-solid lever!

Isn’t the 1199S part of the Brembo recall...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pard

· #58 · Jan 19, 2018

Dingo said:
Isn’t the 1199S part of the Brembo recall...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/20...s-8000-motorcycles-brembo-front-brake-defect/

Ducati initiated an investigation and began to jointly conduct an analysis with Brembo, the component manufacturer. In September, 2017, a third European case was discovered. Failure was found to have occurred during race track use in two of the three cases. In November, 2017, the investigation was finalized and the root cause was identified as above. On December 14th, 2017, Ducati determined that a worldwide safety Recall was justified. For subject motorcycles sold in the U.S, there have been no reports of injuries due to the defect.”

Affected Models Information:

2015-2018 Ducati 1299 STD / 1299 S / 1299 FE / 1299 SL produced from March 16, 2015 to September 22, 2017.
2015-2018 Ducati Monster 1200 S / Monster 1200 R produced from March 04, 2015 to October 23, 2017.
2015-2018 Ducati Multistrada S / Multistrada PP produced from March 16, 2015 to October 31, 2017.
2015-2018 Ducati Panigale R produced from March 16, 2015 to June 20, 2017.
2017-2018 Ducati Scrambler 800 Cafe Racer produced from March 01, 2017 to November 20, 2017.
2015-2018 Ducati XDiavel S produced from January 12, 2016 to September 08, 2017.
Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) ranges for the affected bikes were not included in the defect report.

Ducati will notify owners, and dealers will replace the front brake master cylinder piston, free of charge. The recall is expected to begin February 15, 2018. Owners may contact Ducati customer service at 1-800-231-6696.

Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to www.safercar.gov. The NHTSA Campaign Number is 17V812000.

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dougo1199

· #59 · Jan 23, 2018

IMO, there is a difference in lever feel with the ABS bikes vs the non-ABS models. Like most have commented, it's more so on the initial pull, then it dissipates. I have found this to be the case with my 959 as well. I have also had a few issues with the feel / fade on the 959 under hard street braking. But the stock pads may be playing a part in this as well. I can definitely say I prefer the feel of the non-ABS bikes. I will eventually get the bypass kit for mine.

It appears there are some out there with more complex issues as well.

Pard

· #60 · Jan 26, 2018

Well, after 2 weeks in the shop (getting my leaking coolant pump replaced under warranty) and the front brakes looked at and bled, and tested every which way, my dealer said the brakes have no discernable malfunction are as good as they are going to be.

I can either live with my spongy, double-tap-required-for-firmness-lever, or upgrade.

Here is the solution I am being offered:

"Brembo makes a RCS 17mm and 19mm and either will work but their shaped differently so you have to move the right handlebar switch all the way to the left so the master cylinder is in between the throttle and switch, this has to be done due to the levers being different and will hit the throttle assembly if it is put in the same place, but then you need longer bars which means clip on kit plus assembly, time consuming.

Other option is replace the right handlebar switch with an aftermarket one like this, please check out the pics and let me know our thoughts."

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